Clutch Delay Valve?

"Tripper" (tripe46) 07/10/2019 at 16:20 • Filed to: None

1

42

TIL a clutch delay valve is a thing that exists and is apparently the reason why the clutch pedal in my Alltrack feels so wonky (apart from being new). It’s super easy to remove, however it requires bleeding the clutch.... !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

I’m no stranger to wrenching, however I don’t like bleeding things/messing with hydraulic fluid at all . I’ll do a brake job then drop it off to have the system bled. I’ve done it before but with a buddy who knows what he is doing, and I was just following his instructions and was super nervous about it the whole time.

Apparently bleeding the clutch is a little easier, any oppos done it? Or done this particular mod to your manual trans VW/Audi?

How do I know when it’s been properly blead?

E90M3 > Tripper 07/10/2019 at 16:21

0

I thought your E46 M3 had a clutch delay valve. My E92 has one, but my E90 does not.

Also, helped a friend bleed the clutch on his E30, not any more challenging than bleeding the brakes. 

Tripper > E90M3 07/10/2019 at 16:25

1

It does, but I’ve never had a problem with the clutch feel in a BMW, only the shifter which I have already dealt with for a silly $800.

I’ve never liked the feel of a stock VW/Audi clutch. Even the RS4.

Ash78, voting early and often > Tripper 07/10/2019 at 16:36

1

I did my B5 Passat numerous times using a Motive Power Bleeder — it just pressurizes the whole system with 10-15psi (err on the low side here!) and you bleed the clutch just like any other brake caliper. It’s just a lot harder to reach.

I’ve never heard of this valve before, what’s it for?

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Tripper 07/10/2019 at 16:36

2

OK, I’m going to ask the stupid question....why would you ever want to DELAY actuation of the clutch when you push on the pedal? 0_o

TrickJos > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/10/2019 at 16:56

3

I had the same question. I have a MkVII GTI and never noticed anything wonky. According to Wikipedia, the delay valve is supposed to help prevent drive train damage by preventing the clutch from engaging too quickly. It will still disengage as fast as you press the pedal.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > Tripper 07/10/2019 at 16:57

1

I bought a drilled out one for my E82, drives better with out the delay.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/10/2019 at 16:58

1

It’s for people who don’t really know how to shift, so it’s supposed to smooth out the shifting, but if you quick shift it’s fucking miserable.

sony1492 > Tripper 07/10/2019 at 17:07

1

Wi th the bleeder valve open; There is no bubbles coming out with the hydraulic fluid as you pump. With the bleeder closed: the pedal will feel firm/normal after a few pumps.

His Stigness > Tripper 07/10/2019 at 17:08

0

Just check the forums as a million people have done it. I was going to do the mod on ImmoralMinority’s GTI as he was complaining about the clutch feel too. At first, I was confused as I’ve never felt anything weird on my MKVI, but I guess the valve in the MKVII is different, and it is not better.

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > Tripper 07/10/2019 at 17:27

1

I would be careful about jumping to removing it. I drove a 350Z with a delay valve delete this weekend and the clutch felt almost broken. The bottom half of the travel felt super light and then once you got to the top half it would suddenly get super heavy and the clutch engagement was basically and one-off switch.

Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. > Tripper 07/10/2019 at 17:38

0

I wonder if my Mazda5 had one of these. If I’m pushing the car hard and going from first to second it seems that I can shift faster than things can disengage, leading to an annoying game of ‘beat the synchro’ with the associated grinding noises.

RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 07/10/2019 at 17:43

0

I have no idea if my Accent has one, but I am doubting it...

Tripper > Ash78, voting early and often 07/10/2019 at 17:44

0

The way it was best described to me (might have been in that thread) is that the clutch is supposed to be the “fuse” in the drive line, the delay further helps that

Tripper > His Stigness 07/10/2019 at 17:48

0

The forum posts are where I got the idea. There’s even a video from ECS installing their $130 part that does the exact same thing. However that video only shows the installation of the part (which I am confident with) and the pedal pumping part of the bleeding process (which I am also confident with). I’d love to see a split screen where one side is pumping the pedal and the other side is showing what is going on in the bay.

Tripper > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 07/10/2019 at 17:49

1

I’m not going to destroy or drill it out for that very reason. If you take apart the block you can remove it without breaking it. If it sucks, I’ll put it back.

Tripper > Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. 07/10/2019 at 17:49

0

Apparently a lot of cars do but VWs and Audis are the only ones where I’ve noticed a difference.

His Stigness > Tripper 07/10/2019 at 18:08

1

Ah, well I can help there.

Bleeding the clutch is the same as brakes. You pump the clutch pedal a few time and then hold the clutch pedal to the floor, then open the bleeder valve in the engine bay. So you will need someone to hold the clutch pedal while you open the bleeder valve. 

His Stigness > Tripper 07/10/2019 at 18:12

0

Unless I missed the post, I don’t think you can put the valve back in. It seems like it would be nearly impossible, so I was just going to get IM another valve. 

Tripper > His Stigness 07/10/2019 at 18:35

0

I saw 3 different methods. One guys just sunk a 1/4" drill bit through it. Another broke the restrictor w a pick tool and pushed the pieces out. The last guy took the block apart in order to take the restrictor out in one piece. So I was assuming that could be undone. Prob best to get another as you said $55 not bad 

His Stigness > Tripper 07/10/2019 at 18:54

1

I don’t really see how it would come apart, but I would not recommend that. I would say just order another one just in case and then pull out the valve with a pick on the old one. If it turns out fine I would return the new one. In all the posts I read I never read one where someone said it sucked or it caused some issue.

Tripper > His Stigness 07/10/2019 at 19:03

1

Yea and on the outside chance I don't like it I can Deal for a few days while I wait for the parts or drive something else

CaptDale - is secretly British > Tripper 07/10/2019 at 19:19

0

I have bled fluid a lot. It is easy. You just need an extra set of hands.

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > Tripper 07/10/2019 at 21:27

1

Bleeding a clutch is relatively simple. But you typically pump multiple times on the clutch pedal then hold the pedal down, open bleeder, then you’ll typically have to slowly pull the pedal off the floor then rinse and repeat. You’ll feel it when it’s bled properly. I assume the all track also uses the brake reservoir for its fluid similar to my last S4 6mt.

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > Tripper 07/10/2019 at 21:32

1

I had just replaced the stock line with whatever valve was on there with a braided stainless line.  It gave a very nice and direct clutch pedal feel. 

Tripper > merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc 07/10/2019 at 21:33

1

Correct on the reservoir. I’ll get a helper for this one. The last thing I want is my only modern car all fucked up because I’m an idiot haha.

Tripper > merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc 07/10/2019 at 21:37

0

so cut the bleeder out completely? I saw another video where some dudebro took the “swirl valve” out that way closer to the firewall on a vw.

E90M3 > Tripper 07/11/2019 at 07:37

0

I never realized the non-M E9X cars got the CDV until I was looking at getting a non-M version , but it does make the clutch response a bit different. I have been thinking about removing the one in my 3. 

I had an A3 with a 6MT in the UK for 6 days and put quite a lot of miles on that, I didn’t really have any complaints with the clutch feel. It was a lot lighter than my E92. When I got in my car the day after I got back the clutch was surprisingly heavy. 

functionoverfashion > Tripper 07/11/2019 at 10:19

0

Ah, my E46's had one of these, but it was tiny and very easy to remove. I didn’t even bleed the clutch after on my old one haha. In hindsight, I should have, because when I did the the other one, it made a bigger difference in clutch feel (duh).

There was a company making expensive replacements for the E46 CDV but you could literally just put the two pieces of line together in the absence of the factory unit. But it didn’t stop people from putting “zeckhausen racing CDV” in their signature on E46fanatics as though it was some kind of high-performance modification. I think the only valid argument for replacing and not just removing was warranty... if a dealer sees a part missing, BAM warranty cancelled and you get a wedgie. 

MNtwinz > Tripper 07/11/2019 at 10:36

0

I read this thread and considered doing it to my 6MT MK7 GTI but didn’t want to deal with the line bleeding either. I ended up buying a clutch stop on eBay ($10!) and it’s by far the best thing I’ve done to my car, check out the forum for a thread/links for the clutch stop!

EDIT: here’s the link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/331207149596

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > Tripper 07/11/2019 at 11:55

1

The S4 bleeder was still down on the slave cylinder, but there was some type of valve inline that affected the clutch engagement. It’s been a few years now, so my recollection is hazy, but instead of cutting anything up, it was a “bolt in” new line that ran from the master to the slave and was braided SS without the valve.

Something like this:

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > Tripper 07/11/2019 at 11:59

1

It’s really not that bad.  I remember screwing up when I replaced that clutch line and I had to rebleed the clutch, hit it wasn’t a big deal at all.  You can do it by yourself with a proper length stick and the power seat track.  Pump up the pedal 10-20 times, slowly, then depress the clutch pedal, put your stick in place and move the seat forward if necessary to hold it in the down position, then open the bleeder valve.  Close bleeder valve, and slowly pull the clutch pedal back up, top off the reservoir, rinse and repeat until the clutch feels good, should only take a couple cycles.  

CalzoneGolem > merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc 07/11/2019 at 12:06

1

That’d be pretty easy to return to stock. Toss the old line with valve on the shelf in case you need to swap back.

PartyPooper2012 > Tripper 07/11/2019 at 12:11

1

From what I read, you need clutch delay valve. It sprays a bit of lubricant to lubricate muffler bearings and Piston return springs. If you remove it, you will have squeaky exhaust fumes and your pistons will return a lot slower. 

mattc993 > Tripper 07/11/2019 at 13:24

1

It’s bled when it feels right, motion is within spec, and no air/bubbles are exiting the bleeder valve when pushing new fluid in . Not really any better way to describe it.

The goal with properly bleeding hydraulic systems is to remove all of the air from the line.

Swirl valve/delay valves are pretty common these days. My Evo 10 had one.

If you significantly underbleed it you’ll probably find that the clutch disc will no longer completely release from the pressure plate (always somewhat engaged even with the pedal all the way down) because too much of the motion in the master cylinder/pedal is just compressing air in the lines rather than pushing the (non-compressible ) fluid to the slave cylinder.

Textured Soy Protein > Tripper 07/11/2019 at 15:04

2

My 335xi had a clutch delay valve from the factory. To delete it you can replace it with an M3 or Burger Tuning “valve” which is not really a valve and only a pass-through shaped like a valve. The M3 got it from the factory because BMW used the same clutch line part on the M3 as the other E9x cars, and the line is too short to fully reach without the not-actually-a- valve attached. I guess that was cheaper than giving the M3 its own clutch line. 

Tripper > Textured Soy Protein 07/11/2019 at 15:10

0

I’ve never noticed the one in the E46 M3 causing me a problem. Didn’t even know it was a thing until the VW. ECS sells a similar thing like you’re talking about for the M3 for the Alltrack, but it’s $130. That’s not expensive but it is when I can mod what I’ve got in 15 minutes.

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > CalzoneGolem 07/11/2019 at 15:25

0

Yeah, and in my case, I left the old line in place and zip tied it out of the way as to remove it would have required more removal to get the old line out.

Textured Soy Protein > Tripper 07/11/2019 at 15:31

1

That price is crazy, the Burger one for E8x/E9x is 25 bucks.

CalzoneGolem > merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc 07/11/2019 at 15:34

0

Even better. So convenient.

PartyPooper2012 > RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars 07/11/2019 at 15:40

0

I don’t know what the actual reason is, but seems automakers are trying to make manuals miserable experience so they can be killed. 

ihm96 > Tripper 07/12/2019 at 11:00

0

Thats dumb and only needed if you want it to still look OEM for instance if you still have the warranty and don’t want to mod. Just buy a stainless steel clutch line from any of ECS, Turner, Condor, Garagistic, Bimmerworld, etc. and it wont have the stupid clutch delay valve. I have yet to do it on my Z3 purely out of laziness, but when I bought my E34 (the era right before BMW added all the DBW, Clutch delay valves, etc.) I was amazed at how much easier the clutch was to use. This is why I hate when people claim the E46 as the best pure BMW because by all accounts it has way more electronics and weight than any of the other classic BMWs. The E46 is probably the best all around M3, but nowhere near the most pure.

https://www.condorspeedshop.com/collections/e46-parts/products/stainless-steel-braided-clutch-line-e46

Only 40$ for the new line

RacingShark > Tripper 07/12/2019 at 15:01

0

I removed it from my 330ci and it’s the best/cheapest mod you can make. The clutch was SO much better without it, and I didn’t look like an idiot who didn’t know how to drive a manual anymore. I wish I hadn’t waited so long to do it, it is so much better without it. I think I noticed it more, because I had other manual cars to compare it to.

On the e46, you don’t need anything, y ou can remove it and plug the hose back in to where the CDV was. The CDV is a restrict or valve to slow down how fast the clutch can engage. If you want to keep it there, you can get one that’s been drilled out for like $30. That’s what I did.